Tamikah: This podcast may contain general advice, but does not take into account your personal circumstances, needs or objectives. Any scenarios and stocks mentioned during this podcast are for illustrative purposes only and do not constitute a recommendation to buy, hold, or sell any financial products. The opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the speakers and do not represent Colonial First State's views.
Tamikah: Hi everyone, welcome back to the latest episode of Investor Digest. I'm today's host, Tamikah, investment writer. And you're tuning in for an interesting episode. We're doing somewhat of a bull versus bear debate on Bitcoin, which is a look at some of the potential risks and opportunities of this particular asset. In one corner, we have our designated bear, Curtis, how are you?
Curtis: Very well, thanks for having me, Tamikah.
Tamikah: And in the other, we have Ketan, our designated bull. Thanks for joining us.
Ketan: Glad to be here.
Tamikah: So, Katan, let's start with you. You said you view Bitcoin not as an investment, but as a form of digital currency, which is quite interesting. Could you give us a bit of a background on how you view Bitcoin and how long you've held it?
Ketan: Yep. So I am currently invested in Bitcoin only. I found out about it in 2013. And then from there, I previously had ETFs, which majority of my wealth was in there. Well, the little that I had. And then I've moved on since then to now being full-time into Bitcoin and going down that rabbit hole. And it's been an incredible journey.
Tamikah: I'm sure it has. Curtis, what about your investment journey? Do you have any exposure to Bitcoin?
Curtis: Unfortunately for me, I have not held any Bitcoin, not since 2013 either. It's sort of been something I've been aware of, particularly probably over the last two years, become more and more mainstream and something people are paying more attention to. My investing has been more in the traditional sense through probably Ketan – previous investing life in ETFs and probably something people don't think about, the biggest investment you have is your own property. So that's probably where a lot of my exposure lies as well.
Tamikah: And I'm sure it's with investing or holding assets, you've experienced gains and losses and that's to be expected. These things can be speculative in nature, but in the current environment, which has been referred to by a number of people as a speculation boom or as a market of excess, it seems to be upping the stakes for some people, especially with regards to cryptocurrency, which keeps making headlines. Bitcoin in particular has had some pretty turbulent price swings. Of course, other coins like Ethereum, even Dogecoin, to ride the waves of volatility.
Tamikah: On the one hand, you've got some people saying they like Bitcoin for its versatility over other assets, like bonds or gold, and have declared that the increasing acceptance and uptick of Bitcoin suggests the formation of a whole new asset class. Others still consider Bitcoin as a form of currency. On the other hand, of course, you'll hear the concerns of governments, central banks, regulators as to the fragmented, decentralized nature of blockchain backed investments and trading platforms.
Tamikah: And you might also hear others declare that Bitcoin sensitivity to the news or to tweets, not only takes away from its legitimacy, but also calls into question whether it's actually ready to join the fold as an official asset class. But needless to say, there's a lot of noise, but it seems a couple of schools of thought here. And that's why we have Curtis and Ketan here to offer their respective perspectives on Bitcoin.
Tamikah: Now, before we kick off, this is just a reminder, this podcast isn't providing any recommendations to buy, sell or hold investments. Rather, the guys are here to address some of the potential risks and opportunities of this asset. So let's kick this off. Let's start round one by looking at the fundamentals, Katan, let's start with you. What do you think are some of the fundamentals supporting Bitcoin?
Ketan: I don't actually see Bitcoin as an investment. I see it as money. Now, what that means is... What needs to occur is, you need to ask yourself why was Bitcoin invented? And I think that's the fundamental reason as to why I think, or I believe in Bitcoin. What that would entail is something that can be limited in supply. I'll give you a couple of examples of where these sort of injustices keep playing out. So as the money supply keeps getting printed more and more, you start to see house prices increase, you see things like rent go up, utilities, healthcare childcare, transport, fuel, all of these things go up in price. And so the real injustice here is that wages are only rising by maybe, if you're lucky, 1 or 2%. So year on year, your salary is really not in line with the amount of money that's being printed.
Ketan: I find that to be a gross, gross injustice. So the other question that is now being asked from people is, why do we pay taxes if they can just print the money? And so all of these injustices start to now pile on. Bitcoin has a strict limited supply of 21 million coins. And for the first time in human history, we have been able to produce a digital good that cannot be copy and pasted. That is the key breakthrough in computing science. And so that is what I believe is the fundamental of Bitcoin. It's a brand new evolution of money.
Curtis: I think probably a point I want to pick up on there. You mentioned the expectation that you pay taxes when you own money and the injustices that you see from in the world in its hands of monetary policy and inflation, but I think the idea as a society you pay taxes. The idea is that you're minimizing those social injustices. So if taxes are eliminated in an instance, then there's going to be a gap between the rich and poor or those people who benefit most from tax outlay, whether that's creation of roads or provision of childcare subsidies, or retirement subsidies or looking after those people who are the most vulnerable in our society.
Curtis: But probably something that's sparked my interest when I've done a bit of research, being the designated bear for Bitcoin is probably looking at there's this idea that a lot of people are buying Bitcoin and perhaps aren't fully educated as to what they're buying in terms of the asset class. As someone who's an advocate for investments, probably one of my main passions is educating people about what they're buying into and understanding what they're buying into and being fully across the fundamentals of that. I think I was reading a survey done by Gemini Crypto Exchange, which is quite a big provider in the US and about 70% of owners through their platform indicated that they were crypto curious, despite already owning the currency, which to me would probably indicate that there seems to be a bit of a FOMO, or fear of missing out, element and people aren't educating themselves about cryptocurrency and its implications on the upside or downside and what it means for the world going forward. Did you have any views on what you see across investors and are people fully educated before they're buying these assets?
Ketan: Yeah, you're right there. You've spotted that straight away. Most people are FOMOing in. They're seeing a price going against the US dollar and that price is rising dramatically. And then one tweet just goes out and that has almost halved. And so-
Curtis: Does that worry you?
Ketan: No. Because I'm going back to the fundamentals. I see Bitcoin as money. I don't see it as something that I'm going to convert later on into US dollars or Australian dollars.
Curtis: Yeah. I think that's an interesting point when I think about... I've probably been guilty of this in the past. There's a lot of people may think about Bitcoin as a share price return. But its existence in society is probably different amongst people and their views. Some people I think classify it as property, some people is an NFX or currency slave in your portfolio or is it a share like return? So I think I'd be interested to get your views on that. I personally don't have a view that I think where it sits at the moment, just given its volatility and probably some uncertainty about its correlations with other asset classes.
Ketan: Yeah. So as I mentioned, or me, I don't see it as an investment. It's not an investment for me. It is money. It is what I'm going to use or maybe my children will use, or maybe my grandchildren will use, as their money of the future. That is the way that I see it. I don't see this as a way to make a quick dollar. That's just me, personally. The majority of people who are coming in and seeing this are looking to make a quick dollar. And unfortunately, I think, if you keep that mindset, you are going to be constantly at... You're on edge. Whereas if you think of the number of Bitcoins that you hold out of a possible 21 million, that number never changes.
Curtis: So do you think conflicting views of what the asset is de-legitimizes it in a sense that if 40% of the market are just trying to make a quick dollar off it and see it appreciating, do you think that will cause problems down the future, if not, everyone's buying into this idea of crypto as a currency in the future and an alternative monetary source to what we already have and what we've been used to for thousands of years?
Ketan: Yep. So 100%, I agree with that analysis, but what you will find is, over the history, at least since 2013 for me, you will see these huge bubbles. And then on the way down, there are a select minority who start to learn the fundamentals. Not everyone, because everyone's just going to be burnt out. And they're saying, "Okay, well it's crashed, it's over, forget this." Then it will pop up and it will go even further higher. And then it will crash again. And it typically happens every, I don't know, maybe couple of years, four years is generally the consensus on when that type of thing occurs. Although, we've only had a 12 year history.
Curtis: Is that in line with that coin splitting I believe they do?
Ketan: Yeah. So it's not a coin splitting. It's called the halving. So Bitcoin releases coins. When it first started, it was 50 Bitcoins per 10 minutes. Every four years, it halves. So it is then going into the 25 Bitcoins per 10 minutes. And so when there is this squeeze of literally cutting this, the inflation supply, in half, the demand just-
Curtis: So it's economics 101.
Curtis: You've got to cut off supply when the Bitcoins halve on whatever periodic basis they do, obviously demand knows the same.
Ketan: That's right. And so price has to go up. So that's what's happened. And then it crashes again. But then those people who want to understand the fundamentals of Bitcoin will start to learn and then they slowly start to put more of their wealth in. And then they ride that wave. And it keeps going up, from what I have observed on the past 12 years, that's all.
Curtis: Okay. Now probably if I move to talk about regulation, it seems to be the biggest threat to cryptocurrency and its legitimacy in the market, I know Australia's consulting some legislation that they've put in place, and Canada and in Singapore recently, and that's being explored by the Senate. What, for me, when I look at cryptocurrency and its volatility and news on regulation or the appearance that regulation might become more strict, it seems to drop significantly in price. Although, on the other hand, I'll join the bull argument for a second, the coin base IPOs seem to legitimize that in a way as well, being listed through sort of a regulated market as well. But how do you say the impact of regulation given it's probably going to be a moving part and it's probably going to change significantly with the emerging technology that the blockchain and crypto is, that they might implement some policy and might get it wrong and it could change constantly? How do you say that threatening Bitcoin as an asset or as a currency in your eyes?
Ketan: So it depends on what type of regulation is coming out. At the core level, if I was to send you a Bitcoin transaction, that is uncensorable. No government-
Curtis: Be pretty nice if you would actually.
Ketan: Yeah. Well, if you want to be paid in Bitcoin, well then I'm happy to oblige. But what I'm saying here is, that transaction cannot be stopped by anyone. Whether you're a government, whether you're the police, whether you're the... This is a brand new form of uncensorable money. There is no amount of regulation that's going to stop that. And so we now need to question, how do we arrange society in a way where we have the free... We had the free flow of information on the internet. Now we have the free flow of money as well. This is a huge breakthrough. And so regulators can do whatever they want on the fringes. They can only do things on the fiat system of what they can control. But on the network, well, they can't do much.
Curtis: So there's this idea, I guess, the Fed in the US has been sort of some whispers about this idea of releasing their own cryptocurrency in an attempt, if you can't beat it, join it. How do you see the impact that that would have? My view is that governments may try to intervene to be able to suppress the run that they assume with Bitcoin and in a way probably de-legitimize-
Tamikah: Well, you're already seeing that in China, which obviously is one of the world's largest economies, and there's suppression there that could have some flow and effects. And this is actually probably a good segue in to the second round where we're looking at the risks and opportunities. We've covered some of the fundamentals and you've made some really excellent, interesting points. But if we shift gears a bit, what are some of the other risks or opportunities here, especially if you've got central banks who are proposing their own sort of digital coins or things like that?
Ketan: Yeah. So with the central bank digital coins and all these sorts of things that are coming out-
Curtis: Gov coin.
Ketan: Gov coin, whatever it is called, I welcome it. And the reason is, let the free market decide what is the best form of money for them? Let them decide. Bitcoin is a voluntary participation. No one's asking you to use it. No one's asking you to invest in it. It is there for people who need it, who want it. Now, if you think that a central bank digital currency serves your interests, so be it. But at some point, it will compete with the monetary policy of Bitcoin. And if Bitcoin actually wins on that, then I can see so many people... More of a Trojan horse. They're already used to a central bank digital currency. This is just one stone's throw away into Bitcoin.
Curtis: But I think the beauty is that the central banks are going to be working in an environment that they regulate. Well, are regulated very closely by the government. Whereas Bitcoin is an outside force working in something that's not regulated by them, which they have no influence over as well. So you can sort of see that central banks and governments may have two levers to pull in terms of that. Whereas Bitcoin could be sort of held hostage by what governments decide to do or central banks decide to do.
I actually see that the other way around. I see Bitcoin holding central banks as hostage. What I think is that central banks, if they want to compete with Bitcoin, they're going to have to do something really, really good. And I welcome that. Honestly, I want the best ideas to prevail. And so if I'm looking at that and I'm going, "Okay, here's Bitcoin, it's got these properties. What is the central bank offering me?" And this is where we get monetary competition, but generally speaking money tends to go to the one most saleable good. And that is, when you have a good that people want, that people want to work for, it generally tends to be that one, which was historically gold.
Ketan: Now with this influx of government issued money, which has been removed from the gold standard, we have this experiment really, that has lasted 150 years. And now Bitcoin has come in and they've said, "No, we don't agree with these experiments anymore. Here's what we think. And it's up to you if you want to decide."
Tamikah: Well, Bitcoin's now being dubbed digital gold and is proving quite versatile. Well, I guess perhaps too, perhaps offer a comment on the bear side, one thing that central banks or governments could perhaps offer investors in comparison to those invested in Bitcoin is legal recourse or problem solving, a couple of things there that perhaps are more difficult or less clear, just given the decentralized nature of blockchain platforms and investments like that.
Ketan: I see that as a feature, to be able to roll something back, for me, is not acceptable. If you make an uncensorable permanent transaction, it needs to stand the test of time. That is a transaction that you have made. It cannot be reversed. And that's one of the risks, but it's also one of the greatest features of Bitcoin. You make that transaction, it's done. You're not getting it back ever. And that provides me with certainty. That if my customers pay me, they're not going to put in a charge back, they're not going to try and swindle me. That provides assurance for the business. Sure, customers are probably at a loss here because if the business decides that they don't want to oblige, then yes.
Curtis: What if I'm not happy with a service I've paid you one Bitcoin to come and mow my grass.
Ketan: Yep. Fantastic.
Curtis: You haven't turned up and done it. My ability to recourse that money isn't there.
Ketan: Yep. So first of all, you wouldn't pay up front. I would do the work first and then you'd pay me. That's good. The other thing is, well, the fact is there are reviews, so like on eBay, would you go with a dodgy seller that's just come out yesterday or would you go with a seller that has a big reputation, a reputation to hold and has five star ratings? That's me as a business.
Curtis: Yeah. I think the emergence of the internet, anonymous element of the internet, combined with the ability to transact in a currency which provides some shade from either side of the party probably allows a few loopholes through that as well.
Ketan: There will always be loopholes. There's loopholes right now, but it's just about what is a fair up system. What is a better system of doing business? And I think Bitcoin can do that.
Curtis: Okay. So probably another point I want to touch on, probably more of the social side of Bitcoin. Particularly over the last year, we've seen the environmental impacts that it's having, Bitcoin mining and its production is producing more CO2 than we're seeing out of Argentina or some other countries that aren't small in their own right. But we're seeing significant amounts of pollution through that. The common argument is that the banking system produces X, Y, Z more. But I think you've got to look at this in terms of totality that only a very small percentage of the world own cryptocurrency, but it's got a significant footprint. 99% of the world are using banking systems or legitimized banking systems at this stage.
Ketan: Yeah. Look, the energy argument has been going around since at least I've been around, so 2013. They keep pushing this argument that it's unjustifiable. I think, to be honest, I take a little bit of offense. The reason is, is because I don't ask you to justify your use of electricity. I think for example, the NRL is a waste of electricity. I don't go around saying, "Oh, let's go ban the NRL." I don't go around saying, "Okay, I don't like this TV show being produced, but it costs a lot of electricity and production hours and environmental degradation to produce that television show." I don't go around saying that. I think we're going to go down a very, very strange rabbit hole if we start to ask people to justify their use of electricity. I think that that is a world that I don't really want to live in because, quite frankly, if you're paying for that electricity, you should be able to do whatever you want to.
Curtis: But you might not be able to enjoy your Bitcoin or spend it if the world doesn't exist because we've destroyed it through mining of Bitcoins or providing electricity through other means.
Tamikah: You can say it's only adding to the problem.
Ketan: So this is a competition though. So there is a competing argument here. At some point, as a Bitcoin bull, I believe that this fiat system will slowly start to die down, over the longer term. And what will pick up as a result, which will replace the legacy system, which is what I believe it is, this will be the only thing that I think is worth looking into and worth actually using as money. So we're at that crossroads at the moment. And so yes, there will be usage, but then this will taper off and we will climb on this front.
Curtis: But probably the other thing I want to talk about is, and concerns that have come up, is the ability for it to be a place where money's laundered or crimes are committed, pretty infamous case through the early 2010s, I think, around 2013, Robert Ulbricht or Dread Pirate Robert, he was known in the dark web which sort of facilitated sales of narcotics or murder for hire and preferred payment was only through Bitcoin as well. It sort of allows, because of the anonymous nature of the transaction, for things to be done and crimes potentially commit without any trace or any ability for law enforcement to catch up.
Ketan: Look, I would somewhat disagree that Bitcoin is anonymous. It is not anonymous. If you are going to put something on a permanent ledger on everybody's hard drive, which is what Bitcoin is, then you really don't want that permanently on there. If I was to commit a crime, I'd be using cash, straight up money, like cash paper notes.
Curtis: You talk about the hard drive. How would I trace that imprint on the hard drive to anyone in the world?
Ketan: It's not an imprint on the hard drive. So what Bitcoin is, is a distributed ledger and that ledger is on everybody's computer who's running the Bitcoin network. And so if there is a history there of something happening, I wouldn't want that trace there.
Curtis: Is the ledger you're developing identifiable to anyone at the other end?
Ketan: It can be.
Curtis: Can be.
Ketan: It can be. That's what I'm saying. It can be. You can use various techniques to be able to drill down, what wallet they're using, the time of day, what the business hours were during those times. You can create sort of stories with this information on there. Whereas cash is a lot less traceable.
Curtis: Let's talk about wallets. So probably one of the obvious downsides of Bitcoin, you hear horror stories of people who have $3 billion of Bitcoin and they've forgot their password. If you had it in a portfolio and you're CIO of a super fund, and the CIO forgot his password. Well, you've lost your member's money and you can't access it again. That's probably a major concern from my perspective on the security side. Also, there's stories emerging of people's cards being stolen through, I think, some magnetic devices as well. So probably the big concern for me there as well as security, which is probably the number one thing people care about these days.
Ketan: 100%. I completely agree with you. The fact of the matter is though, for the first time in human history, we have been able to now hold our money without the need of a bank or a central bank. That comes with self responsibility. Broadly speaking, custody of these coins is a big, big topic. There are so many avenues by which to lose, but there's also avenues to protect and defend yourself against loss.
Curtis: We already have this problem in the world with wealth inequality. The top 5% in the world are controlling what? 95% of the assets around the world or whatnot. If cryptocurrency or Bitcoin for namesake is to become legitimized and a standard form of currency, don't you sort of see this idea that that's only going to fuel that problem is those people that hold Bitcoin now are going to hold all the aces in their pocket. Whereas those who don't, aren't going to be able to survive. I'm sort of picturing a post-apocalyptic world in my mind-
Ketan: So you're saying you're a bull?
Curtis: ... where we're going round, and I'm trying to steal your Bitcoin wallet to try and get money or whatnot, where there's very few people. If you're going to legitimize a currency, and putting aside the problems we have with money in the world today, because a lot of your arguments have been based about, well, it's better than the alternative. But if we want to move to this nirvana state where wealth equality is equal across the globe, I might sound communist in that sense but everyone has equal access. How do you go about that with a blockchain technology-
Tamikah: And, just a side question, what's the interplay between Bitcoin and the other 6500 crypto currencies, Ethereum, Dogecoin, what place is there for those coins as well?
Ketan: Okay. So this is a loaded question, particularly around equality. Solving equality, I think governments have been trying to do that for many, many years now. I don't know if they've succeeded. I don't know what metrics they use to say, "Yes, we are now all equal." And so I think that that is a nirvana that probably shouldn't be achieved or probably can't be achieved. There will always be someone who is better than you at something. When you come in as a fresh person into this world, you come with nothing and therefore, you have to earn your money. So depending on your skill, depending on your labor, depending on your education, you are paid in Bitcoin. That's all that's changing. I think it's irrelevant to say, "Okay, well, this person's wealthy because he got in early." The monetary system of 21 million, everything being priced in there, I think is a fairer system. So it's an equality of opportunity, not an equality of outcome. And that's what I think should happen. Again, loaded question.
Ketan: Your second point was around Dogecoin, Ethereum and all these other alternative currencies.
Curtis: You shook your head at that.
Ketan: Yes I did. So what we need to really go back to is the fundamentals of Bitcoin, which is what I was trying to be spruiking the entire time. If you believe that the monetary policy of choice that has stood the test of time for at least 12 years and has not changed, if you think that that is the credible source, then you should probably go into there. For example, Ethereum does not have those levels of, I guess, stability in the sense of the monetary policy. So they have rolled back the chain, for instance. In Bitcoin, that has never happened. And there would be an uproar, whereas Ethereum, Dogecoin, all of these other ones have what's known as a premine.
Ketan: A premine is where you allocate a certain percentage of money or that coin to a certain individual, usually the creators. In Bitcoin that never happened. So that is why it is the purest chain that we have. That's what I believe. Now, most people will see on the crypto exchange that they're using, "Ah, Bitcoin is $50,000. It's so expensive." I want you to be aware of unit bias. There are other coins out there who might have names attributed to Bitcoin-
Curtis: Because yeah, they're buying one whole coin. I don't really have the cash sitting around so I could buy one.
Ketan: The thing is though, you can buy Bitcoin in decimal places. It actually divides itself into eight decimal places. So you can buy 0.01 of a Bitcoin, if that tickles your fancy. So you don't have to buy one whole Bitcoin. And so be aware of these unit biases that occur saying, "Oh, this one's cheaper. Might as well go into dabble into that." Now you are doing investment speculation. I am doing, "Okay. Here's my monetary policy for my children, might give grandchildren." Completely different thought.
Curtis: So you're not a believer in diversification across Bitcoin. That sort of goes against investment theory in all its existence. So you're not an advocate for spreading across different types of coins out there?
Ketan: No. They have generally got a premine, they've rolled back the chain, or they're not as secure as Bitcoin.
Curtis: If you indulge the bear in me, what do you see as the biggest risk to cryptocurrency, if I haven't said it already or to Bitcoin, and it's moving forward?
Ketan: To be honest, central banks actually competing, going back to the gold standard. If you actually compete with Bitcoin, I think you might win at this point. But I think, it's now growing to become an unstoppable force. And the more that that grows, the more people have confidence in it. I've got confidence in 12 years. I think I'll have another confidence in 20 years and 30 years and 40 years. I think I will.
Curtis: So I think that's probably something I want to touch on, you think. I think what the beauty is of like a vanilla asset class like Australian shares or global shares, you know in 30 or 40 years through the compounding effect that you are going to have wealth creation. And even from a so-called Bitcoin bull, we do have some uncertainty there in the future that does pose risk.
Ketan: Of course. That's like with life, I mean, tomorrow you could get hit by a bus. Of course there are risks. There are things in the code that might get missed. There are a competition that may come out. I don't think so, but let's see. I'm not saying that Bitcoin is done, it's baked, it is it. I'm just saying, from what I can see and what's coming out and what's competing with it, Bitcoin is surpassing everything.
Tamikah: Now we are going over time. So moving to round three, just wanted to clear up some of the common misconceptions about Bitcoin. So perhaps the one from the bulk perspective, one from a bear perspective.
Ketan: People need to understand why this was created. I think it really comes back down to the fundamentals and that's what's causing many not understanding those fundamentals and that's what's causing the speculative mania, all of these sorts of things. If you come back down to the fundamentals of why, what is Bitcoin a direct response to, then I think you'll serve yourself well with all forms of misconceptions.
Curtis: I just want to address that energy comment. I don't think that's a misconception. I think that's a view.
Ketan: It was in that sense. Yes, yes.
Curtis: Everyone has their own views and well entitled to, around environmental impacts as well.
Tamikah: Isn't that what one of the latest tweets was about?
Curtis: Yeah. I think his latest view crashed at 30% or something, but moving on from that, I think probably my most common misconception is where it lies. I think a lot of people, which is probably back to the speculative nature and particularly we've seen the rise of the retail trader in stock markets, Robinhood over the last year is. Is Bitcoin a share? Some people say it's property. Is it currency? So I think there's a lot of misconception in the market around its function and what it does in a portfolio. I think, at CFS, we construct multi-asset portfolios. We think about the role of it in a portfolio. I don't think there's enough empirical evidence yet to understand how it's correlated. Because a lot of things we look at is the correlations between different types of shares, property shares, global shares, Australian shares, bonds and cash.
Curtis: But I think Bitcoin has been very sentiment driven, particularly over the last, well in its whole existence, if you look at where it started to where it is now. So I don't think there's really comfort in the market from investment management perspective to where it gives you diversification exactly. Because it seems to go up one day, down the other, where shares will be up completely, bonds will be down. I know correlation theory between bonds and stocks has gone really out the window lately, but I think that's the biggest misconception and probably the biggest point of discovery for the industry as well.
Tamikah: Well, that's a really great conversation, guys. Some really insightful points there, some views that I personally hadn't considered. I'm sure the same with you, Curtis?
Curtis: No, I've definitely, being the assigned bear, I definitely learned a lot today from Katan.
Tamikah: Well, I think we'll leave it there. Is everybody still friends?
Ketan: We'll always be friends, of course. Of course we're still friends.
Tamikah: That's good. Now, Colonial First State regularly shares timely market updates and other thought leadership pieces on a range of topics. In the meantime, if you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe. We're on Apple, Spotify, Google, everywhere, but for now, thanks for tuning in. We'll catch you next time.
Tamikah: Just a reminder, the opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the speakers and do not represent Colonial First State's views. You should read the PDFs available on our website, assess whether the information is appropriate for you, and consider speaking to a financial advisor before making an investment decision. Past performance is no indication of future performance.